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Korros

Potential RP reforms

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Roleplaying has been fairly dead recently. While there are obvious seasonal variables (nearing the end of the school year, better weather = less indoor time, etc.), I think there are some steps that can be taken to encourage more roleplaying.

One issue that can be fixed is florins. Florins are a currency that has yet to take off. The main reason is that we receive a steady supply (through posting), but have little use for them. I propose to fix this by:

-If possible, only award florins for post in certain sections (essentially everywhere but the General forum). This will funnel florins to RPers, who would be more likely to use them in an RP capacity.

-Lower the cost of a business license. Elici suggested lowering it to 1500 F. While I'm unsure of who has how many florins, I remember when I first saw that a license cost 2000 F my exact thought was "F-ck it." Another path might be to allow nations with florins to burn to donate them to the YMA, which then gives them out.

Another issue is the status of non-WA members. I feel that the current rules and norms unfairly preclude non-WA members from engaging. I imagine a lot of non-WA folk would prefer to involve themselves in the regional forum instead of the NS. I certainly do. Most of the arguments against this have been along the lines of non-WA players being untrustworthy. However, invader nations are by necessity WA nations, and the current restrictions only delay any hypothetical treachery by 24 hours.

Finally, I think it would be good to see some of the powers-that-be in the forum engage in actual RP. Silvadus has put up a new map. I've started my term as YU Speaker. Tyrtania is RPing a revolution. Now would be a great time for the elder statesmen of the site to put up an RP post here and there. You don't have to be obsessive, but if you're going to put 10 posts in the Fun & Games section, surely you can spare a paragraph of RP every now and then.

These are my thoughts.

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One issue that can be fixed is florins. Florins are a currency that has yet to take off. The main reason is that we receive a steady supply (through posting), but have little use for them. I propose to fix this by:

-If possible, only award florins for post in certain sections (essentially everywhere but the General forum). This will funnel florins to RPers, who would be more likely to use them in an RP capacity.

How do you intend to fix a "steady supply but little usage" problem by restricting the "steady supply" to a specific part of the forum? You say RPers will likely use florins in an RP capacity, I hear statwanking via spamming the boards.

Little usage of the florin, and the role of the florin itself are problems that should be discussed thoroughly.

-Lower the cost of a business license. Elici suggested lowering it to 1500 F. While I'm unsure of who has how many florins, I remember when I first saw that a license cost 2000 F my exact thought was "F-ck it." Another path might be to allow nations with florins to burn to donate them to the YMA, which then gives them out.

...or you could ask for a subsidy from the MAY which would result in a waiver of the entry fees.

Another issue is the status of non-WA members. I feel that the current rules and norms unfairly preclude non-WA members from engaging. I imagine a lot of non-WA folk would prefer to involve themselves in the regional forum instead of the NS. I certainly do. Most of the arguments against this have been along the lines of non-WA players being untrustworthy. However, invader nations are by necessity WA nations, and the current restrictions only delay any hypothetical treachery by 24 hours.

There is nothing precluding non-WA Members from engaging. However, if you want to serve in the Council, you should have a WA Nation in Yggdrasil. This is a requirement that's been put in place for two reasons:

1. It will encourage more people to join the WA.

2. Since a WA is probably the nation which a player uses actively, prospective Councillors are guaranteed to be active.

If active players are so paranoid about joining the WA but still want to involve in regional politics, they could simply create a WA puppet and move it here. Like what Zybodia did.

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With regards to the florin issue, the goal is to make them have value. If they are to have RP value, then they should only awarded for roleplaying. As for your fear of post spamming, that will require a vigilant Interior Minister. Besides, it is a lot more difficult to spam RP threads than it is to post a slew of internet quiz results.

I concur that the purpose of florins should be discussed. I've chosen to start that discussion here.

If the YMA can forego the fee, why not just remove the fee.

As for the WA membership, it isn't fear. It's not wanting to have to deal with the malaise of a grossly unwieldy WA. The regional forum allows for a more personalized RP experience.

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If possible, only award florins for post in certain sections (essentially everywhere but the General forum). This will funnel florins to RPers, who would be more likely to use them in an RP capacity.

I think this is an excellent idea.

I feel that the current rules and norms unfairly preclude non-WA members from engaging. I imagine a lot of non-WA folk would prefer to involve themselves in the regional forum instead of the NS.

Good LORD! Thank you! I would be so happy if this would get changed. I don't give a damn about the WA, but I do care about Yggdrasil. The fact that my options are both or neither is so horrid.

10 posts in the Fun & Games section, surely you can spare a paragraph of RP every now and then.

Exactly my sentiments. The Fun and Games forum is such a drain on time. If people spent half the time they did there in the RP sections we would have a very lively RP scene.

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With regards to the florin issue, the goal is to make them have value. If they are to have RP value, then they should only awarded for roleplaying.

No. The problem the florin isn't valued enough is because while there are ample opportunities to earn it, there aren't many to spend it.

It's a classic demand-supply problem. The supply here heavily exceeds the demand.

As for your fear of post spamming, that will require a vigilant Interior Minister. Besides, it is a lot more difficult to spam RP threads than it is to post a slew of internet quiz results.

Completely beside the point. It's not spamming that I fear, but statwanking.

The development of your nation in NationStates should be the basis of role-play in off-site forums; not the other way round. While boosting RP activity here by the use of some mechanism is highly desirable, I cannot support any proposal that allows more active nations here have an advantage in RP over larger, more established nations.

If the YMA can forego the fee, why not just remove the fee.

You want to remove a valid way of spending the florins you earn? That will only lead to further devaluation of the florin.

As for the WA membership, it isn't fear. It's not wanting to have to deal with the malaise of a grossly unwieldy WA.

Like I already said, you could simply create a WA puppet, set it on Vacation Mode and move it here. You don't have to create another forum account or anything. You'll get all the benefits of a WA member as long as the puppet verifies your identity via TG (or you could simply name your puppet, Korrosan WA Puppet, or something similar. Then, there won't be any need for additional verification).

Exactly my sentiments. The Fun and Games forum is such a drain on time. If people spent half the time they did there in the RP sections we would have a very lively RP scene.

While I do agree on your observation that we could have a livelier RP scene with better participation, I wouldn't agree with your first statement. There are people who don't find role-play exciting. There are people who don't get it. There are those who don't have time for it. There are those who are more interested in other facets of the game. There are those who won't take part for certain reasons. Such people may find it 'such a drain on time'.

RP is not the most important part of NationStates.

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No. The problem the florin isn't valued enough is because while there are ample opportunities to earn it, there aren't many to spend it.

It's a classic demand-supply problem. The supply here heavily exceeds the demand.

My initial post specifically entails reducing the supply aspect asset (in this case by not award florins to non-RP posts). Increasing the demand can be achieved by developing actual RP uses for florins.

Completely beside the point. It's not spamming that I fear, but statwanking.

Actually, you previous your concern was "statwanking via spamming the boards." If the spamming is controlled, the statwanking is prevented.

The development of your nation in NationStates should be the basis of role-play in off-site forums; not the other way round.

Roleplaying here CAN'T influence my nation in NationStates.

While boosting RP activity here by the use of some mechanism is highly desirable, I cannot support any proposal that allows more active nations here have an advantage in RP over larger, more established nations.

Why not? Why can't Silvadus, hypothetically, have an advantage in RP over Legal Eagle? Honestly, as Legal Eagle isn't involved in RP to a great extent, having this "RP advantage" would be completely irrelevant to Legal Eagle. So why not?

You want to remove a valid way of spending the florins you earn? That will only lead to further devaluation of the florin.

Florins are already worthless. As of right now, so is the business license. Of four licensed businesses (I'm assuming IGY is a zombie thread), only one does decent business. If florins gain RP value, nations will be able to earn florins for RP industries. Any "devaluation" will be offset if the licensed businesses start bringing in florins for RP purposes.

Like I already said, you could simply create a WA puppet, set it on Vacation Mode and move it here. You don't have to create another forum account or anything. You'll get all the benefits of a WA member as long as the puppet verifies your identity via TG (or you could simply name your puppet, Korrosan WA Puppet, or something similar. Then, there won't be any need for additional verification).

Why would it matter, if I'm not going to use the puppet to endorse anyone or vote on resolutions? In the first post you list one of the reasons for the WA membership requirement as "a WA is probably the nation which a player uses actively, (thus) prospective Councillors are guaranteed to be active."

There are people who don't find role-play exciting. There are people who don't get it. There are those who don't have time for it. There are those who are more interested in other facets of the game. There are those who won't take part for certain reasons. Such people may find it 'such a drain on time'.

Fair enough. This won't affect them. My space program has never interfered with the "Five Letter Sentence" thread. Tyrtania's RP civil war hasn't prevented it's service in the YDS.

RP is not the most important part of NationStates.

RP is the distinguishing feature of NationStates. It's designed around creating imaginary nations. RP certainly is more important to NationStates than "Count to 10,000!"

Whether it's important or not, these ideas will hopefully increase RP participation, with no tangible loss to non-RPers.

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My initial post specifically entails reducing the supply aspect asset (in this case by not award florins to non-RP posts). Increasing the demand can be achieved by developing actual RP uses for florins.

I have already said that I have reservations with your proposed method of increasing demand.

Actually, you previous your concern was "statwanking via spamming the boards." If the spamming is controlled, the statwanking is prevented.

'Spamming' wasn't used in the traditional sense in that sentence.

Roleplaying here CAN'T influence my nation in NationStates.

Why not? Why can't Silvadus, hypothetically, have an advantage in RP over Legal Eagle? Honestly, as Legal Eagle isn't involved in RP to a great extent, having this "RP advantage" would be completely irrelevant to Legal Eagle. So why not?

No it wouldn't affect your nation in NationStates, but development of your nation in NationStates should be the sole basis for role-play. RP figures should be based on what the NS nation of yours actually is, rather than how active you are here (spamming, in this sense, refers to high activity).

You shouldn't have boosted figures in RP over Blackandgold, just because you're more active here; since it would be completely out of line with what the NS nation of Blackandgold is, and what calculators such as NSEconomy say about that nation (thus, statwanking).

Hence the usage, 'statwanking via spamming'.

There are already measures in place to reward activity, such as medals and awards. And if that is not enough, we have to discuss other measures to reward activity. I'm not at all convinced that making Florins a completely RP-based commodity is the right thing to do.

Florins are already worthless. As of right now, so is the business license. Of four licensed businesses (I'm assuming IGY is a zombie thread), only one does decent business. If florins gain RP value, nations will be able to earn florins for RP industries.

Which one would it be? ODesign? Oskr gets jobs every now and then, but that's far from being a decent business.

Nothing prevents RP-based businesses, even now. At least one of the businesses is a quasi-RP business. You can see for yourself how it's doing.

Any "devaluation" will be offset if the licensed businesses start bringing in florins for RP purposes.

Don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Why would it matter, if I'm not going to use the puppet to endorse anyone or vote on resolutions? In the first post you list one of the reasons for the WA membership requirement as "a WA is probably the nation which a player uses actively, (thus) prospective Councillors are guaranteed to be active."

Immediately afterward, I did also say:

If active players are so paranoid about joining the WA but still want to involve in regional politics, they could simply create a WA puppet and move it here.

which is valid for all who refuse to join the WA, but are active here as Non-WA members; whether they're paranoid or not.

Fair enough. This won't affect them.

Umm.. Yes it does. Florins have other uses than RP already, you know.

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I have already said that I have reservations with your proposed method of increasing demand.

'Spamming' wasn't used in the traditional sense in that sentence.

No it wouldn't affect your nation in NationStates, but development of your nation in NationStates should be the sole basis for role-play. RP figures should be based on what the NS nation of yours actually is, rather than how active you are here (spamming, in this sense, refers to high activity).

You shouldn't have boosted figures in RP over Blackandgold, just because you're more active here; since it would be completely out of line with what the NS nation of Blackandgold is, and what calculators such as NSEconomy say about that nation (thus, statwanking).

Hence the usage, 'statwanking via spamming'.

First, I disagree that NationStates should be the sole basis for roleplay. A lot of thing simply aren't covered in NationStates. Other things aren't definitive. I know from previous interaction that you have a very literal interpretation of what is "accepted RPing" in this forum, to the point you didn't recognize a roleplay thread that occurred on NationStates that involved several nations in Yggdrasil. Are you then saying roleplaying can only consist of answering multiple choice questions on NationStates?

Second, let's discuss the example of the large NS nation being "overwhelmed" by a smaller, active nation. I see no reason this is a problem. Are you concerned that the florin will become the de facto economic measure? It needn't be. I had previously proposed that the NS economy indicate the domestic output/consumption/etc., while florins be used as a measure for active trade. So theoretically, the large, non-RP nation would have a massive economy that is largely self-contained.

Third, florins have been floated as having non-financial roles (gifts to deities, etc.). The florin needn't be Yggdrasil's dollar or euro. But giving it some value would be good.

Fourth, most of the large, established nations or those who have been here awhile, so they have buckets o' florins anyway.

Fifth, there's still the "so what?" factor. Let's say a nation with 5 billion people arrives tomorrow, signs up, and does nothing. A nation of 20 million with lots of florins says "ZOMG I'M LAUNCHING AN ALL OUT TRADE WAR LOL!!!!!!!!" If the large nation isn't roleplaying, it doesn't affect him. Can't hurt him.

Which one would it be? ODesign? Oskr gets jobs every now and then, but that's far from being a decent business.

Which only proves my point that something is wrong with the current system.

Nothing prevents RP-based businesses, even now. At least one of the businesses is a quasi-RP business. You can see for yourself how it's doing.

Nothing prevents RP-based businesses de jure. De facto florins aren't tied to RP, so there is no benefit to trying to RP a business in addition to regular RP.

Immediately afterward, I did also say:

which is valid for all who refuse to join the WA, but are active here as Non-WA members; whether they're paranoid or not.

The point I was trying to make is the restriction doesn't help. What do we have to show for it? Current elections have been up for three days, and as of this writing, no one has stepped forward. Last election cycle, with three positions up for election, the declaration period was extended, because only one person declared their candidacy, that being ol' non-WA me.

Florins have other uses than RP already, you know.

You can buy lotto tickets...for more florins!

You can receive them for contests.

Looking through the forum, the only semi-functional use of florins is in ODesignInc.

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First, I disagree that NationStates should be the sole basis for roleplay. A lot of thing simply aren't covered in NationStates. Other things aren't definitive.

Such as?

Are you then saying roleplaying can only consist of answering multiple choice questions on NationStates?

No, but how you answer each of those "multiple-choice questions" should be the basis of role-play here. In other words, if the game claims you're a dictatorship, you have to role-play as a dictatorship, not a democracy. Similarly, if NSEconomy says your Defence budget is 0, well then, you probably shouldn't role-play a nation that has a high-tech, advanced military.

Second, let's discuss the example of the large NS nation being "overwhelmed" by a smaller, active nation. I see no reason this is a problem.

Well, I do.

Are you concerned that the florin will become the de facto economic measure? It needn't be. I had previously proposed that the NS economy indicate the domestic output/consumption/etc., while florins be used as a measure for active trade. So theoretically, the large, non-RP nation would have a massive economy that is largely self-contained.

You previously suggested that florin be used 'for RP uses' without exactly specifying what those 'uses' would be.

I'm okay with having 'a measure for active trade', but it cannot be the florin.

Fourth, most of the large, established nations or those who have been here awhile, so they have buckets o' florins anyway.

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion when I had quoted the example of Blackandgold.

Fifth, there's still the "so what?" factor. Let's say a nation with 5 billion people arrives tomorrow, signs up, and does nothing. A nation of 20 million with lots of florins says "ZOMG I'M LAUNCHING AN ALL OUT TRADE WAR LOL!!!!!!!!" If the large nation isn't roleplaying, it doesn't affect him. Can't hurt him.

And what if the 5 billion player who, after keeping quiet for a long while, suddenly decides to get active in RP?

Which only proves my point that something is wrong with the current system.

Which is a point I didn't refute.

Nothing prevents RP-based businesses de jure. De facto florins aren't tied to RP, so there is no benefit to trying to RP a business in addition to regular RP.

What is this 'benefit [of] trying to RP a business in addition to regular RP' that can be obtained only if you tie the florin to RP?

The point I was trying to make is the restriction doesn't help. What do we have to show for it? Current elections have been up for three days, and as of this writing, no one has stepped forward. Last election cycle, with three positions up for election, the declaration period was extended, because only one person declared their candidacy, that being ol' non-WA me.

It's been only a couple of days since the nomination period was opened. Give it some time before jumping to conclusions.

You can buy lotto tickets...for more florins!

You can receive them for contests.

Looking through the forum, the only semi-functional use of florins is in ODesignInc.

Which are all still non-RP uses of the florin that affect non-RPers too.

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No, but how you answer each of those "multiple-choice questions" should be the basis of role-play here. In other words, if the game claims you're a dictatorship, you have to role-play as a dictatorship, not a democracy. Similarly, if NSEconomy says your Defence budget is 0, well then, you probably shouldn't role-play a nation that has a high-tech, advanced military.

Most of the issues in NationStates are fairly tongue-in-cheek. Also, some issues have only two or three extreme-end-of-the-spectrum choices. Players are inherently limited by the choices. In real life, governments with trade deficits aren't faced with only three choices, of which they can only pursue one option.

Also, most people who are serious RPers will have their NationStates and Yggdrasil nations match as closely as possible. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find an example on the forum where this is not the case. Your hypothetical problem is one of bad RPing, not the florin.

You previously suggested that florin be used 'for RP uses' without exactly specifying what those 'uses' would be.

Well, I've made suggestions. Others have made suggestions previously (when new maps were being discussed). I've actually posted this to get the ball rolling. Everyone generally agrees "yeah, it'd be great figure something out with the florin" but then ignores it. I'm pushing to accomplish something.

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion when I had quoted the example of Blackandgold.

Blackandgold is one nation, not the majority of large nations in Yggdrasil.

And what if the 5 billion player who, after keeping quiet for a long while, suddenly decides to get active in RP?

I imagine it would go something like this:

Small nation: "ZOMG I'M LAUNCHING AN ALL OUT TRADE WAR LOL!!!!!!!!"

Big nation: "Gee, I feel like some RP today."

Small nation: "TOO LATE!!!! I ALREADY DESTROYED YOUR ECONOMY AND PURCHASED YOUR COUNTRY FOR $3.59!!!!!!!!!!"

Big nation: "Uh, no. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And your Caps Lock is on."

Looking at this forum, players generally only RP with other RPers. And if the large country is lacking in florins, he still has the large economy to use. Now, an inactive RPer whose nation has a crap economy is screwed. But they're screwed under the current plan.

What is this 'benefit [of] trying to RP a business in addition to regular RP' that can be obtained only if you tie the florin to RP?

RPing requires a certain commitment of time and effort (thinking and writing posts). Let's say a player can devote an hour actively posting every day. In the RP section there are various things that take up time and effort. Why would he spend even, say, ten minutes a day running some business for florins?

Now, if florins have an RP value, than there is an incentive. Putting the effort to start and maintain the business has a payoff.

It's been only a couple of days since the nomination period was opened. Give it some time before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not jumping to conclusions. My statements are factual. The last election WAS inactive, and as of this writing, there are still no candidates.

Which are all still non-RP uses of the florin that affect non-RPers too.

How? If I randomly got 50,000 florins and dumped them all on "disaster prevention" in some hypothetical RP system, how does this affect the Lotto? Or the Arcade Contest?

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